From coultraguy at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 20:04:16 2008 From: coultraguy at gmail.com (Devin Quince) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:04:16 -0600 Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib Message-ID: <1dae6bc0801101204q7f0ec090q1b4bfbb33e9da034@mail.gmail.com> In keeping with the letters to the strib, I submitted this today regarding the greenway road crossings.. Bicycle path crossing safety As a full time bike commuter who regularly uses the Midtown greenway, both LRT trails, and the Cedar Lake greenway I wanted to talk about the rules and safety of roads that cross these paths. Every day that I ride these paths, I have drivers who will stop at the intersections and try and let me through. While this is very considerate, it is very unsafe for both driver and cyclist. For the driver, the dangers are that other drivers are not expecting you to stop at these intersections, as they are not signed as crosswalks and the possible lack of attention on their part could result in you getting rear ended. The other problem is that these other drivers may just choose to go around you and this could result in another accident or worse, them hitting a cyclist or other trail user that you waved through as a nice gesture. Since it is the law for trail users to yield to traffic, if I were hit by a vehicle going around you, I would be at fault. While we appreciate the thoughtfulness of your actions, please just continue driving for everyone's safety. Thanks, Devin Quince Minneapolis bicycle commuter -- Devin Quince http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider From stevec at tlcminnesota.org Thu Jan 10 20:57:40 2008 From: stevec at tlcminnesota.org (Steve Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:57:40 -0600 Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib In-Reply-To: <1dae6bc0801101204q7f0ec090q1b4bfbb33e9da034@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dae6bc0801101204q7f0ec090q1b4bfbb33e9da034@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01c853cb$70c4a0a0$524de1e0$@org> It is amazing just how many motorists will yield to cyclists in situations where the cyclist has the stop sign. I too find that I'm frequently waving the motorists on. The only problem with this letter, Devin, is the statement, "since it is the law for trail users to yield to traffic...." I am afraid that people reading this might incorrectly think that this means in all cases trail users have to yield to traffic. In fact there are many places where the trail user has the right of way. In general where trails cross roadways a crosswalk exists (even if it is unmarked) and once in a crosswalk both pedestrians and bicyclists have the right of way. This doesn't mean however that a cyclist can run a stop sign and expect immunity. On the other hand, many of the stop signs along the Greenway (east of Hiawatha) should probably be reversed to give trail users the clear right of way since the number of users on the greenway exceeds that on the streets being crossed. Unfortunately what happened in St. Louis Park at Beltline Blvd has completely led to misinformation on what the MN statutes say and the best engineering practices to avoid such tragedies. Steve Clark Walking and Bicycling Program Manager Transit for Livable Communities 651-767-0298 ext. 119 -----Original Message----- From: advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org [mailto:advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org] On Behalf Of Devin Quince Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:04 PM To: advocate at minneapolisbikes.org; Wirth_River_Greenway at yahoogroups.com Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib In keeping with the letters to the strib, I submitted this today regarding the greenway road crossings.. Bicycle path crossing safety As a full time bike commuter who regularly uses the Midtown greenway, both LRT trails, and the Cedar Lake greenway I wanted to talk about the rules and safety of roads that cross these paths. Every day that I ride these paths, I have drivers who will stop at the intersections and try and let me through. While this is very considerate, it is very unsafe for both driver and cyclist. For the driver, the dangers are that other drivers are not expecting you to stop at these intersections, as they are not signed as crosswalks and the possible lack of attention on their part could result in you getting rear ended. The other problem is that these other drivers may just choose to go around you and this could result in another accident or worse, them hitting a cyclist or other trail user that you waved through as a nice gesture. Since it is the law for trail users to yield to traffic, if I were hit by a vehicle going around you, I would be at fault. While we appreciate the thoughtfulness of your actions, please just continue driving for everyone's safety. Thanks, Devin Quince Minneapolis bicycle commuter -- Devin Quince http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at minneapolisbikes.org http://minneapolisbikes.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate_minneapolisbikes.org From coultraguy at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 20:59:48 2008 From: coultraguy at gmail.com (Devin Quince) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:59:48 -0600 Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib In-Reply-To: <000c01c853cb$70c4a0a0$524de1e0$@org> References: <1dae6bc0801101204q7f0ec090q1b4bfbb33e9da034@mail.gmail.com> <000c01c853cb$70c4a0a0$524de1e0$@org> Message-ID: <1dae6bc0801101259x2c71ba8erf211fa06c20e962b@mail.gmail.com> Steve, I agree with you about the possible misconception, but every intersection on the CLP and LRT from Beltline going west has signs saying "trail users must yield to cars" Right now, I am trying to make drivers aware as to why a cyclist would wave them on, as I routinely getted honked, yelled at, etc. when I wave the drivers on and do not take them up on their kindness. Devin On Jan 10, 2008 2:57 PM, Steve Clark wrote: > It is amazing just how many motorists will yield to cyclists in situations > where the cyclist has the stop sign. I too find that I'm frequently waving > the motorists on. > > The only problem with this letter, Devin, is the statement, "since it is > the > law for trail users to yield to traffic...." > > I am afraid that people reading this might incorrectly think that this > means > in all cases trail users have to yield to traffic. In fact there are many > places where the trail user has the right of way. In general where trails > cross roadways a crosswalk exists (even if it is unmarked) and once in a > crosswalk both pedestrians and bicyclists have the right of way. This > doesn't mean however that a cyclist can run a stop sign and expect > immunity. > On the other hand, many of the stop signs along the Greenway (east of > Hiawatha) should probably be reversed to give trail users the clear right > of > way since the number of users on the greenway exceeds that on the streets > being crossed. > > > Unfortunately what happened in St. Louis Park at Beltline Blvd has > completely led to misinformation on what the MN statutes say and the best > engineering practices to avoid such tragedies. > > Steve Clark > Walking and Bicycling Program Manager > Transit for Livable Communities > 651-767-0298 ext. 119 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org > [mailto:advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org] On Behalf Of Devin Quince > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:04 PM > To: advocate at minneapolisbikes.org; Wirth_River_Greenway at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib > > In keeping with the letters to the strib, I submitted this today regarding > the greenway road crossings.. > > Bicycle path crossing safety > As a full time bike commuter who regularly uses the Midtown greenway, both > LRT trails, and the Cedar Lake greenway I wanted to talk about the rules > and > safety of roads that cross these paths. Every day that I ride these paths, > I > have drivers who will stop at the intersections and try and let me > through. > While this is very considerate, it is very unsafe for both driver and > cyclist. For the driver, the dangers are that other drivers are not > expecting you to stop at these intersections, as they are not signed as > crosswalks and the possible lack of attention on their part could result > in > you getting rear ended. The other problem is that these other drivers may > just choose to go around you and this could result in another accident or > worse, them hitting a cyclist or other trail user that you waved through > as > a nice gesture. Since it is the law for trail users to yield to traffic, > if > I were hit by a vehicle going around you, I would be at fault. While we > appreciate the thoughtfulness of your actions, please just continue > driving > for everyone's safety. > Thanks, > Devin Quince > Minneapolis bicycle commuter > > -- > Devin Quince > http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ > > Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! > > Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there > will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" > Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition > > "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" > Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at minneapolisbikes.org > http://minneapolisbikes.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate_minneapolisbikes.org > > > -- Devin Quince http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider From nickmason at dero.com Thu Jan 10 21:37:00 2008 From: nickmason at dero.com (Nick Mason) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:37:00 -0600 Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib In-Reply-To: <1dae6bc0801101259x2c71ba8erf211fa06c20e962b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dae6bc0801101204q7f0ec090q1b4bfbb33e9da034@mail.gmail.com><000c01c853cb$70c4a0a0$524de1e0$@org> <1dae6bc0801101259x2c71ba8erf211fa06c20e962b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007301c853d0$ef17da80$0d00a8c0@BigBlue> Devin, Actually, Devin you have nailed what the State Bicycle Advisory (SBAC) continues to struggle with. I must concur with Steve: we do NOT want to give misleading information about right of way because there is a lot of variation- both metro and statewide. Different jurisdictions deal with trail crossings in different ways. This makes it very hard for cyclists and motorists to come to an understanding about what to do. Beltline, for example, had always been marked as a crosswalk giving bikes and peds right of way. They experienced a crash there, in part because the crossing was not up to the recommended trail crossing design guidelines. By removing the crosswalk, they took right of way from the trail users, but not all motorists are aware of the change. Furthermore, by removing the crosswalk, they made a less-than-ideal crossing even less safe. (Legally, the jurisdiction is now more protected from crash related lawsuits, however.) Yet, down the trail in other jurisdictions there are similar roadway cross sections where the trail user does have right of way by means of a marked crosswalk. How are users and motorists supposed to differentiate what to do at a crossing when they move freely between jurisdictions that treat them differently? It is a problem, and a tough one to solve for many reasons. But, the SBAC are continuing to evaluate it and encourage communities to follow recommended crossing guidelines. (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/bike/pdfs/Chapter%205%20Shared-Use%20Paths%20Bw. pdf) -Intersections descriptions begin on pg 148. Best, Nick Mason Dero Bike Rack Company 2657 32nd Ave. S Minneapolis, MN 55406 Toll Free: 888-337-6729 P: 612-359-0689 F: 612-331-2731 www.dero.com -----Original Message----- From: advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org [mailto:advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org] On Behalf Of Devin Quince Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:00 PM To: Steve Clark Cc: advocate at minneapolisbikes.org; Wirth_River_Greenway at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib Steve, I agree with you about the possible misconception, but every intersection on the CLP and LRT from Beltline going west has signs saying "trail users must yield to cars" Right now, I am trying to make drivers aware as to why a cyclist would wave them on, as I routinely getted honked, yelled at, etc. when I wave the drivers on and do not take them up on their kindness. Devin On Jan 10, 2008 2:57 PM, Steve Clark wrote: > It is amazing just how many motorists will yield to cyclists in situations > where the cyclist has the stop sign. I too find that I'm frequently waving > the motorists on. > > The only problem with this letter, Devin, is the statement, "since it is > the > law for trail users to yield to traffic...." > > I am afraid that people reading this might incorrectly think that this > means > in all cases trail users have to yield to traffic. In fact there are many > places where the trail user has the right of way. In general where trails > cross roadways a crosswalk exists (even if it is unmarked) and once in a > crosswalk both pedestrians and bicyclists have the right of way. This > doesn't mean however that a cyclist can run a stop sign and expect > immunity. > On the other hand, many of the stop signs along the Greenway (east of > Hiawatha) should probably be reversed to give trail users the clear right > of > way since the number of users on the greenway exceeds that on the streets > being crossed. > > > Unfortunately what happened in St. Louis Park at Beltline Blvd has > completely led to misinformation on what the MN statutes say and the best > engineering practices to avoid such tragedies. > > Steve Clark > Walking and Bicycling Program Manager > Transit for Livable Communities > 651-767-0298 ext. 119 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org > [mailto:advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org] On Behalf Of Devin Quince > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:04 PM > To: advocate at minneapolisbikes.org; Wirth_River_Greenway at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib > > In keeping with the letters to the strib, I submitted this today regarding > the greenway road crossings.. > > Bicycle path crossing safety > As a full time bike commuter who regularly uses the Midtown greenway, both > LRT trails, and the Cedar Lake greenway I wanted to talk about the rules > and > safety of roads that cross these paths. Every day that I ride these paths, > I > have drivers who will stop at the intersections and try and let me > through. > While this is very considerate, it is very unsafe for both driver and > cyclist. For the driver, the dangers are that other drivers are not > expecting you to stop at these intersections, as they are not signed as > crosswalks and the possible lack of attention on their part could result > in > you getting rear ended. The other problem is that these other drivers may > just choose to go around you and this could result in another accident or > worse, them hitting a cyclist or other trail user that you waved through > as > a nice gesture. Since it is the law for trail users to yield to traffic, > if > I were hit by a vehicle going around you, I would be at fault. While we > appreciate the thoughtfulness of your actions, please just continue > driving > for everyone's safety. > Thanks, > Devin Quince > Minneapolis bicycle commuter > > -- > Devin Quince > http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ > > Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! > > Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there > will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" > Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition > > "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" > Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at minneapolisbikes.org > http://minneapolisbikes.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate_minneapolisbikes.org > > > -- Devin Quince http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at minneapolisbikes.org http://minneapolisbikes.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate_minneapolisbikes.org From coultraguy at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 21:40:56 2008 From: coultraguy at gmail.com (Devin Quince) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:40:56 -0600 Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib In-Reply-To: <007301c853d0$ef17da80$0d00a8c0@BigBlue> References: <1dae6bc0801101204q7f0ec090q1b4bfbb33e9da034@mail.gmail.com> <000c01c853cb$70c4a0a0$524de1e0$@org> <1dae6bc0801101259x2c71ba8erf211fa06c20e962b@mail.gmail.com> <007301c853d0$ef17da80$0d00a8c0@BigBlue> Message-ID: <1dae6bc0801101340s20f7a63fh9d05d1bcc0138d7a@mail.gmail.com> Sorry if I seem a little sensitive, but what are cyclists supposed to do? Should the letter not have been written, are we not supposed to try and educate drivers, or just get a car? I have tried unsuccessfully to contact people at TLC, and the bike depot about getting more involved in bike advocacy here, but have not heard anything until I submit this letter and wham, I feel like I overstepped my bounds. If this is not the case, please forgive me it just feels like I am on the wrong side here. On Jan 10, 2008 3:37 PM, Nick Mason wrote: > Devin, > > Actually, Devin you have nailed what the State Bicycle Advisory (SBAC) > continues to struggle with. I must concur with Steve: we do NOT want to > give misleading information about right of way because there is a lot of > variation- both metro and statewide. > > Different jurisdictions deal with trail crossings in different ways. This > makes it very hard for cyclists and motorists to come to an understanding > about what to do. Beltline, for example, had always been marked as a > crosswalk giving bikes and peds right of way. They experienced a crash > there, in part because the crossing was not up to the recommended trail > crossing design guidelines. By removing the crosswalk, they took right of > way from the trail users, but not all motorists are aware of the change. > > Furthermore, by removing the crosswalk, they made a less-than-ideal > crossing > even less safe. (Legally, the jurisdiction is now more protected from > crash > related lawsuits, however.) Yet, down the trail in other jurisdictions > there > are similar roadway cross sections where the trail user does have right of > way by means of a marked crosswalk. How are users and motorists supposed > to > differentiate what to do at a crossing when they move freely between > jurisdictions that treat them differently? > > It is a problem, and a tough one to solve for many reasons. But, the SBAC > are continuing to evaluate it and encourage communities to follow > recommended crossing guidelines. > ( > http://www.dot.state.mn.us/bike/pdfs/Chapter%205%20Shared-Use%20Paths%20Bw. > pdf) -Intersections descriptions begin on pg 148. > > Best, > > Nick Mason > Dero Bike Rack Company > 2657 32nd Ave. S > Minneapolis, MN 55406 > Toll Free: 888-337-6729 > P: 612-359-0689 > F: 612-331-2731 > www.dero.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org > [mailto:advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org] On Behalf Of Devin Quince > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:00 PM > To: Steve Clark > Cc: advocate at minneapolisbikes.org; Wirth_River_Greenway at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib > > Steve, > I agree with you about the possible misconception, but every intersection > on > the CLP and LRT from Beltline going west has signs saying "trail users > must > yield to cars" Right now, I am trying to make drivers aware as to why a > cyclist would wave them on, as I routinely getted honked, yelled at, etc. > when I wave the drivers on and do not take them up on their kindness. > Devin > > On Jan 10, 2008 2:57 PM, Steve Clark wrote: > > > It is amazing just how many motorists will yield to cyclists in > situations > > where the cyclist has the stop sign. I too find that I'm frequently > waving > > the motorists on. > > > > The only problem with this letter, Devin, is the statement, "since it is > > the > > law for trail users to yield to traffic...." > > > > I am afraid that people reading this might incorrectly think that this > > means > > in all cases trail users have to yield to traffic. In fact there are > many > > places where the trail user has the right of way. In general where > trails > > cross roadways a crosswalk exists (even if it is unmarked) and once in a > > crosswalk both pedestrians and bicyclists have the right of way. This > > doesn't mean however that a cyclist can run a stop sign and expect > > immunity. > > On the other hand, many of the stop signs along the Greenway (east of > > Hiawatha) should probably be reversed to give trail users the clear > right > > of > > way since the number of users on the greenway exceeds that on the > streets > > being crossed. > > > > > > Unfortunately what happened in St. Louis Park at Beltline Blvd has > > completely led to misinformation on what the MN statutes say and the > best > > engineering practices to avoid such tragedies. > > > > Steve Clark > > Walking and Bicycling Program Manager > > Transit for Livable Communities > > 651-767-0298 ext. 119 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org > > [mailto:advocate-bounces at minneapolisbikes.org] On Behalf Of Devin Quince > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:04 PM > > To: advocate at minneapolisbikes.org; Wirth_River_Greenway at yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Bicycle Advocate] Letter to the strib > > > > In keeping with the letters to the strib, I submitted this today > regarding > > the greenway road crossings.. > > > > Bicycle path crossing safety > > As a full time bike commuter who regularly uses the Midtown greenway, > both > > LRT trails, and the Cedar Lake greenway I wanted to talk about the rules > > and > > safety of roads that cross these paths. Every day that I ride these > paths, > > I > > have drivers who will stop at the intersections and try and let me > > through. > > While this is very considerate, it is very unsafe for both driver and > > cyclist. For the driver, the dangers are that other drivers are not > > expecting you to stop at these intersections, as they are not signed as > > crosswalks and the possible lack of attention on their part could result > > in > > you getting rear ended. The other problem is that these other drivers > may > > just choose to go around you and this could result in another accident > or > > worse, them hitting a cyclist or other trail user that you waved through > > as > > a nice gesture. Since it is the law for trail users to yield to traffic, > > if > > I were hit by a vehicle going around you, I would be at fault. While we > > appreciate the thoughtfulness of your actions, please just continue > > driving > > for everyone's safety. > > Thanks, > > Devin Quince > > Minneapolis bicycle commuter > > > > -- > > Devin Quince > > http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ > > > > Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! > > > > Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, > there > > will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" > > Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition > > > > "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" > > Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at minneapolisbikes.org > > > http://minneapolisbikes.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate_minneapolisbikes.org > > > > > > > > > -- > Devin Quince > http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ > > Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! > > Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there > will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" > Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition > > "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" > Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at minneapolisbikes.org > http://minneapolisbikes.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate_minneapolisbikes.org > > -- Devin Quince http://quinceurbanhomestead.blogspot.com/ Start demanding safe passage on our public roads! Before there were automobiles, and after there will be automobiles, there will be bicycles moving people around for transportation" Andy Thornley, program director for the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition "Being so close to death makes you realize that you are alive" Nels Johson 1988 Iditabike rider